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Are regular space marines still Ard Boyz viable?
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Are regular space marines Ard Boyz top 3 viable?
Yes
85%
 85%  [ 17 ]
NO
15%
 15%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 20

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Stee Jans



Joined: 28 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:26:46 0    Post subject: Are regular space marines still Ard Boyz viable? Reply with quote

So, in preparing for the Ard Boyz tournament this year I keep asking myself what army am I going to play. While the new bugs are wicked, I made it to the semi finals last year with a Vulcan list and have a boat load more games and experience in with my marines. So, my thinking is with a better Vulcan list than I ran last year, hopefully I can get back to the semis.

So, my question is are regular space marines still viable to finish in the top 3 spots at ard boyz this year. While new bugs are wicked, and the blood angels codex seems very, very strong, I still think a cheezed out SM list utilizing 1 or more special characters can be pretty darn nasty.

In particular, to me, Vulcan is as good as it gets if you have the models that he gives the buffs too, and you play with the best units in the codex. I mean, master crafted thunder hammers, and twin linked melta and flamer weapons is amazing. The best units in the codex to me are the Sternguard, and thunder hammer / storm shield terminators. So, below is my list attempting to maximize the strengths that Vulcan gives to your army.

Vulcan - 190 pts
Librarian in terminator armor with a storm shield - 145 pts
- Gate of Infinatry - Null Zone

10 x Sternguard in a drop pod w/ locator beacon - 370 pts
- Pfist, 2 x melta guns, 8 x combi meltas

10 x Sternguard in a drop pod - 360 pts
- Pfist, 2 x melta guns, 8 x combi meltas

9 x Thunderhammer / Storm shield Terminators - 360 pts

10 x Tactical Marines in a drop pod - 245 pts
- Pfist, combi melta, melta gun, multi melta

10 x Tactical Marines in a rhino - 245 pts
- Pfist, combit melta, melta gun, multi melta

10 x Tactical Marines in a rhino - 245 pts
- Pfist, combi melta, melta gun, multi melta

10 x Tactical Marines in a rhino - 260 pts
- Pfist, combi melta, teleport homer, melta gun, multi melta

3 x scout bikes, combi melta - 80

Total Points - 2500

Tactics - There is a lack of expensive vehicles in the list for a reason. Ard boyz tournament lists are so overloaded with melta weapons and lances it's rediculus. Last year I ran 2 land raiders and while I was fine in the prelims, twice in the semis they both got popped in turn 1 or 2. I myself made a mess of expensive armor in any games I played with drop podding melta troops, and twin linked meltas all over the board. However, the best hand to hand unit in the marine codex is hands down assault terminators with hammer and shields, and Vulcan master crafts all their hammers, so they have to be in my list. Foot slogging is not an option, so my answer is a small scout bike squad with a teleport homer, and a libriarian with gate of infinaty (24 inch teleport spell).

With 3 total drop pods first turn I can drop in the 2 stern guard units with a grand total of 20, yes 20 twin linked melta gun shots (if I want to blow all the combi melta shots turn 1). I can combat squad them out of the drop pods and take out 4 vehicles turn 1. Or say good bye to a minimum of 2, toughness 6, 6 wound Big Bugs. If I combat squad them against bugs, and can get a rhino or two close enough to also fire, then 3 Big Bugs could potentially be dropped.

Next comes getting the 9 assault terminators immediately into action. The scout bikes turbo boost forward into a position that is close to the enemy, close to the sternguard, and the 6 inches for their homer, is within 24 inches of the librarian who is in the terminator squad. The key to this trick is keeping the librarian more than 24 inches away from an enemy model with a psychic hood. Shadows in the warp for the nids is only 12 inches, so there is no issue there. I simply want a 10 or less psychic test that first time I need to teleport the terminators. Since the Gate of infinaty is done at the start of the librarians movement phase, and the scout bikes started the game on the board, and moved before the librarian, I can teleport the librarian and all the assault termies 24 inches and don't have to worry about scatter. In the shooting phase I light up whatever with the sternguard first, then run with the terminators to hopefully get them into a position to cover some of the sternguard.

So, first turn an oppenent just got lit up like a christmas tree with a potential 20 twin linked sternguard meltas and has 9 TH / storm shield terminators with Vulcan and a Libby in T armor with a storm shield directly in their face. Tough target choices to make when you just lost probably 400 plus points of stuff from the sternguard, but now have 9 assault termies about to assault you on round 2. 9 storm shield termies with 2 characters can absorb an absolutely rediculus amount of fire.

The 4 tactical squads of course are there for support fire, objective holding, etc, etc. Each is equiped with a melta gun, combi melta, powerfist sergeant, and a multi melta to help clean up any vehicles left later in the game, or to have needed str 8 punch against big bugs or later round deep strikers. The scout bike seargent has a combi melta as well just in case he has something to go after. There also is a teleport beacon on 1 drop pod, and with 1 tac sergeant. I had extra points and the thought is that if I have the sergeant with it babysitting an objective in my zone, and I drop a pod with 1 close to an enemy objective then there is a chance I can teleport the librarian and a squad to one of them late in the game if needed.

There are a total of 8 melta guns, 4 multi meltas, and 21 combi meltas in the army. All being twin linked. All 6 squads 10 man squads have sergeants with power fists, and there are 9 master crafted thunder hammers. A total of 74 models, and 7 tranports. Of course Vulcan is a beast with a master crafted relic blade, and 3+ invulnerable save.

Again, my thought is maximize Vulcan's army buffs, cripple the enemy turn 1, get the assault terminators into combat turn 2, and don't have any 100+ point tanks, or 275 pt land raiders getting popped turn 1 and 2. Also, the librarian gives me that LD 10 hood to mess up enemy psychers and of course is mandatory since I don't have land raiders to transport my assault termies.

OK, let me know what you guys think. Shoot holes in it if you will and give me your honest opinions.

Thanks!!
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dru
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PostPosted: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:12:12 0    Post subject: Reply with quote

man, i don't have the willpower to read this whole thing. thankfully, we talked about this earlier today. i think marines are great but it seems like the game is already passing by their versatility. seems like the other top codicies do what the marines want to do but better. given time to prepare for specific foes, i think sm are wonderful and can be tailored as a beat stick, but for an all comers, i just don't think they have it.
i like your list, and it may work great, but you'll be relying on going first for it to work, otherwise, the bikes could get wasted by the enemy since they are close, and your termies will have to rely on luck.
give it a try and see how it plays, i think you could prob get to round two w/ it for sure
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Stee Jans



Joined: 28 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:05:16 0    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, what your saying Dru is to play my big bugs, ha ha ha?

oooooooorrrr are you saying to paint up some checkered shoulder pads and swap out my imperial fist ones so I can play the Lamenters which just so happens to be an all YELLOW Blood Angels successor chapter Very Happy. I was really planning on avoiding the draw of the blood Angels until I found an all yellow chapter. Oh boy, can I resist the cheeze!!!

Actually, I really don't need to go first at all and in fact, going second might work better. I can easily hide 3 scout bikes because it's not like I need to be up on the front line with them. I just need to get out there in the area. Also, no one runs a gun line in ard boyz as they will get annialated, so even if the bikes do get taken out first turn, chances are very good that the enemy has something coming my way, or will have deep strikers droping into my back line, etc. I also have 2 other teleport homers that after turn 1, I could utilize to get close if needed. The bikes are just there to help the cause, but in no way do I think I have to go first, or they need to survive for me to do well.
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IamDan



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PostPosted: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:17:06 0    Post subject: Reply with quote

This list seems extremely brutal in the opening turns of the game, but I just have a feeling that if things don't go exactly right, like some how managing to roll 20 1s and 2s on the damage chart, can horribly hamper it early. Unlikely, but if you roll like myself it does happen haha.

I really like the idea though, and would love to play against a list like this sometime, just to see how well I could handle the first turn. I would definitely say some play testing is in order.

Now that I think of it, going second would probably benefit you, as you could pull the enemy closer, then pop the transports, that way your termies don't end up so far ahead of the rest of your army and unsupported. Granted they could probably hold their own for awhile. Please report back any play testing you get in, I'm extremely interested.
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chris
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PostPosted: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:29:00 0    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the Marines are still great, if built and played correctly of course, but this goes for every army. A list like this looks awesome. As an ork player, Vulcan scares the crap out of me. I ran into him in the 1750 tourney round 2. I had 2 uber cheezed out units of nobz with warbosses in both, and Vulcan and the marines had them completely wiped round 3, and that was with me making 5+ invulns at about a 66% clip. Fortunately for me, it was an objective game, and the 2 hour time limit was up after 4 rounds. Had it been a 6 round game I would of been completely wiped.

A few issues with tactics. I think the gate of infinity would have to be used at the beginning of the movement phase. There's only 1 movement phase for the whole army, right? There isn't mulitple beginnings to the movement phase is there? Secondly, I got some issues with the gate of infinity and teleport homers. Reading the codex word for word, it looks like the locater beacon would work for gate of infinity, but the teleport homers would not. Teleport homers clearly state they work for teleport only, not other means of transportation. Gate of infinity is not a teleport. Not sure if there's an faq on this or not, haven't gotten around to looking into it more.

All and all it looks like a nasty list though. The bugs are great, and blood angels appear to be as well, but they are just the newest thing in my oppinion. Their good, don't get me wrong, but it's a new enemy, and it'll take awhile to figure them out.
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Nolze



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PostPosted: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:58:12 0    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest with you jud i don't think that list has the ability to take on a nid player. Especially one that plays a swarm list
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Superbran



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PostPosted: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 03:20:31 0    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, so Nolze and Dru are both wrong in my opinion. This list could definitely hang with nids as it has a few sternguard units and it definitely has the ability to alpha strike someone. I think the locator beacons on the drop pods might be a bit much though. Also, your sternguard don't need 10 combi meltas. Make them even better by having 2 regular melta guns, 4 combi meltas, 2 combi plasma, and 2 combi flamers. This will make them beasts against all comers. I think you might be able to swap out a tactical squad for something else. Maybe a scout squad w/cc weapons and bolt pistol to augment your assault termies? Just my 2 cents.

Mark
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Mitchell



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PostPosted: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 20:16:20 0    Post subject: Reply with quote

Using the Stern with meltas in a drop pod with lysander was by far the best unit I had on the table every game. Far out did the Termies with Vulkan, So two of them coming in on the same turn would be amazing. Having a Hero with them made it all the better. (they got assualted every game of the tourny) First round took out a big nid bug that had like 6 wounds or something and a good amount of gaunts once they got tied up the whole game by that thing that spawns more gaunts where as Vulkan and 5 thunder hammers did one wound to 3 zoanthrobes. 2nd game they landed and shoot down 7marines then proceded to kill 10 sternguard Sicarus and the rest of the first marine squad. 3rd game they landed and held up Blood Angels for 2 turns. I shoot all I had into that Hero with 5 wounds T6 that had a 2+ save or something but couldnt kill him. was pretty upsetting when You can't kill a hero with 10 sternguard, 5 with rerolled meltas and 5 with rapid fire rerolled 2+ wound ammo. BA though get the same squad and you could throw a priest in to give them Feel No Pain which would be beast.
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Stee Jans



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PostPosted: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 23:33:37 0    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sarge, you are indeed right about the teleport homer not working with gate of infinaty. I did some further research and only teleporting terminators held in reserve can use it. However, locator beacons are fine, so the one with the scout bikes, or any I have on drop pods would work. But the drop pods could not be used until turn 2 or later because it says the model must be on the table at the start of the turn.

As far as moving, the gate says it's used at the beginning of the librarians movement phase. I researched that one as well, and you can move the bikes first, then use the gate at the start of the librarians movement phase.

Markie Mark, I do have 2 melta guns in each sternguard unit already (2xmelta guns, 8x combi-meltas). But, I think your right that I should cut down on the combi meltas and add some combi flamers and maybe combi plazmas. Also, I think in a few tac squads (like the late arriving drop pod) I should take out the melta gun and add a flamer. I had a mix of them in last years list and flamers were amazing against the horde armies. While I agree with you that this list would easily hang with Nids, some flamers certainly would help if they were playing a swarm list and not max big bugs.

I have a couple variations of the list I'll throw out there soon.
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MrBill2u



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PostPosted: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:50:39 0    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been toying with the idea of using combi flamers with the sternguard. Then if you combat squad them, squad one pops the armor and squad two BBQs them. This would be particularly effective if you could identify a priority one transport and a priority two close by. That way if your first MM squad pops it, your 2nd tries to pop priority two. If not, you have a second round of TL meltas before opening up with your flamers. That would also give them a hell of a punch vs horde armies.

If you look at leveraging Vulkan just by the math, I still think flamers are a MUCH bigger deal than MMs. If you were in a BS3 army the boost to MMs would be huge. In a BS4 army he makes those MMs 22% more effective. Against S4 and S5 opponents you get better than 50% boost to every flamer shot. I always thought the scariest unit on the table in a Vulkan army was multiple landspeeder squadrons with MMs and Heavy flamers. My plan right now (although I have been out of the game so long I am sure it is severely flawed and will die a horrbile death) is to protect my Land Raider by putting 3 two deep landspeeder squadrons and 3 vindicators on the table. With 6 targets on the table having kill priority over my landraider I am hoping that gives me a turn or two for the land raider to deliver it's package.

Vs nid swarms, you could then not squad them and land one pod by two different units. 5 TL flamers plus 10 shots of hellfire ammunition will put a hurt on any swarm.
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Mitchell



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PostPosted: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 16:14:10 0    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget you can grab up to 2 heavy flamers in stern also that would be re-rolled with vulkan which would help with the str5 and ap4. only 10 pts instead of 5 for a combi
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